I stopped replying to people on my socialism debate because you are all talking about things that are completely irrelevant. You seem to think that socialism is inherently about taking things from people to give them to other people, but this is the exact opposite of the truth. In capitalism everyone works so that a few people can reap most of the benefit, in socialism you work for the community as a whole and are rewarded for what you actually can do for society rather than how well you play the game of making profit.
CAPITALISM: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit
SOCIALISM: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Enough straw man arguments, debate me about socialism and capitalism, not your romanticized fantasy of what capitalism is and your false idea of socialism based on anti-socialist propaganda you got from your right wing government.
Arguments
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
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Well since this debate is about what Socialism "Is" then I'm willing to hear your examples of Socialism that currently "Is" being used effectively and subsequently how the Countries using Socialism are better than the United States in regards to Economics and Politics. Go.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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My apologies I didn't get that from what I read. I don't believe socialism works in reality as evidenced by no successful countries, barring any anomaly.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
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Oh no, there's a reference method on here for names @Applesauce, I assumed it would be understood that if I wasn't addressing anyone specifically then by default it would either be addressed to the OP or just a general statement. My statement wasn't in response to yours at all and I clearly see your post as supporting the Con side of the argument against Socialism. I edited the post to reflect that I'm talking to @StrangeQuarkMatter ...cheers.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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There are no countries that are 100 percent socialist, according to the Socialist Party of the United Kingdon
Most have mixed economies that incorporate socialism with capitalism, communism \], or both.
The following countries have a strong socialist system.
Norway, Sweden, and Denmark: The state provides health care, education, and pensions. But these countries also have successful capitalists. The top 10% of each nation's people hold more than 65 percent of the wealth. That's because most people don't feel the need to accumulate wealth since the government provides a great quality of life.
Cuba, China, Vietnam, Russia, and North Korea: These countries incorporate characteristics of both socialism and communism.
Algeria, Angola, Bangladesh, Guyana, India, Mozambique, Portugal, Sri Lanka, and Tanzania: These countries all expressly state they are socialist in their constitutions. Their governments run their economies. All have democratically elected governments.
Belarus, Laos, Syria, Turkmenistan, Venezuela, and Zambia: These countries all have very strong aspects of governance, ranging from healthcare, the media, or social programs run by the government.
Many other countries, such as Ireland, France, Great Britain, Netherlands, New Zealand, and Belgium, have strong socialist parties and a high level of social support provided by the government. But most businesses are privately owned. This makes them essentially capitalist.
Many traditional economies use socialism, although many still use private ownership and therefore are more capitalist than socialist.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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- Not everyone wants to be controlled by the community and have to bow to it to get the resources they need; some prefer to be free instead.
- A community can be one of the biggest tyrants, as, for example, such a seemingly innocent entity as housing cooperatives - small communities with dictatorship of the majority are bad enough, and the whole state being one such community is a malice.
- "Fairly" depends on the subjective view, in this case forced by the society. I, for one, think that the fairest distribution of wealth is "Everyone holds whatever they can obtain". And I prefer to stick to my values, rather than the values of random people - which socialism does not allow.
- I am an individualist. I cannot stand being controlled by others. Normally I can defend from others trying to control me due to the individual rights I am guaranteed. In socialism, I would not have this protection.
Socialism is just a tyranny of the majority, a rule of the mob. I am not sure why it is so hard for some to see how unappealing this system is to people with free spirit.Even discarding simple arguments in economics demonstrating that socialism is, at least, an order of magnitude less effective economically than capitalism, this is simply a system I, and many others, do not want to live in, even (and especially) in its "ideal" implementation.
In capitalism, I am free to pursue my endeavors. I am free to choose what contracts to sign, I am free to choose who to interact with, I am free to choose what wealth to use for myself and what to spend on charity. Yes, capitalism does not reward everyone. It is possible to fail here. It is possible to be lucky or unlucky. It is possible to earn a lot of money by doing little, and it is possible to earn little by doing a lot.
But that is what makes it interesting. It is a very bright, colorful, diverse system. There are many aspects to it, many ways to succeed or fail, to make mistakes and to learn on them.
Socialism, on the other hand, is a grey, boring, monotonous system, suited best for conformists and those who we used to call "homo-soveticus" in times not so distant. It suppresses dissent by its own design, it washes out individuality and throws everyone into the same social-economical pot. I would rather die than have to live in such a place.
---
All these authoritarian ideologies - socialism, communism, fascism, nationalism, patriotism, isolationism, religion, shamanism, cultism - should go away and remain only as a reminder of history. There are many ways the current capitalism system dominating worldwide can be improved; putting chains on people is not one of them.
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"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1me3ak-UNfyU3eshRYhDx8XHC4szfqMtdM1D_kUEBN2w/edit
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"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scandinavia is not in the slightest socialist. Economical activity is not controlled by the society, but by private individuals competing on a free market. Scandinavia does feature heavy social spending, but that social spending does not constitute socialism in any way. Social spending is funded from taxpayer's money, and that money is generated on a free market.
The Denmark prime minister even had to publicly refute Sanders' claims about those countries being socialist, explaining that their success is a result of people being free to pursue their dreams on a free uncontrolled market.
In fact, many economists believe that Scandinavia features a more pure capitalism, than even the US. Until the recent tax reform in the US, the US had a much higher corporate tax than any of the Scandinavian countries. Scandinavian countries also offer very strong incentives for private businesses and investments, such as tax exemptions, wide subsidies and tariff compensations. Farmers receive a wide financial assistance and cheap land offerings from the government.
Scandinavian countries support private businesses on a free market heavily, and that is why they can afford to get away with such high individual taxes and heavy social program funding: their thriving free market makes up for the loss in individual income and funds the governmental expenses.
The term "democratic socialism" is very misleading and does not describe those countries' economical systems, no matter how widely it is used nowadays.
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Can you site your sources on how Scandinavia isn't democratic socialist?
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Here is a decent review of the matter:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#59b56b7474ad
These countries have significantly fewer economical regulations than the US economy has. They have higher tax rates and, hence, heavier social governmental spending - but their markets are as free as the US markets, if not more so.
For one, the US has one of the (if not the) most restrictive antitrust laws in the world. In, say, Nordic countries, on the other hand, corporations are mostly left to tend to themselves, no matter how far they grow.
While the extremely heavy personal income tax rates in Scandinavian countries do clog their economies significantly (and that might be the primary reason why they never have anything that seriously competes with the top US corporations, such as Google or Ford), it has little to do with socialism, democratic or not.
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Germany
Denmark
Iceland
Norway
Switzerland
Italy
France
Canada
New Zealand
Australia
Now these like it or not are socialist stop your view that all developed nations are capitalist.
You are using a false dilemma saying that you can be capitalist or communist but not socialist.
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Prove that I don't know what socialism is.
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Socialism has nothing to do with how the poor live. Also, one of my best friends lives in Germany; she is poor, and she is hardly having a "nice life" - she is much worse off than me, despite me being relatively poor by American standards.
Socialist mentality in a nutshell: the desire to build a great life for oneself is sociopathic, but the desire to steal others' property is not.
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I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. I'm struggling to keep my family fed. Socialism means that my taxes will go up and I will never get the chance to get out of the dismal economic class I'm in. Socialism means that I should be happy with what I got, and I should be happy because I'm helping society. Socialism means that "the struggle" is admirable and builds character, so I should just keep my mouth shut and be happy with what I got. So ya, I guess it's pretty easy for me to want to reject socialism in every manner! Shame on me for believing that we shouldn't be forced to stay in the economic class we were born into.
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*posts list of countries with capitalist economies*
"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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So capitalism is the system that takes care of the poor the best after all? Who would have thought....
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If somebody volunteers their time or money to help the poor, they're being righteous human beings, not socialists. I think it would offend them if you called them socialists.
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